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Original: 10/20/2008 3:13 PM
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Monday, October 20, 2008

Why I Support and Hate Prop 8 At The Same Time + What I Believe is the Right Response

 Lord have a mercy on us, sinners. If left to ourselves, apart from your grace, we would remain powerless and hopeless in our sin.

This is going to be a tough entry to write. This is going to raise some eyebrows and piss some people off but I write this seriously out of love. Love for God, love for the elect, love for the lost and love for the homosexual community.

I've been having a hard time fully supporting Prop 8 and I wasn't sure why. Biblically, critically, and morally, I see the necessity of this proposition but something was holding me back pastorally. I've been wrestling with this for a couple of days now and this essay is the sum of my thoughts. Why I support and hate Prop 8 at the same time.

I. Why I support Prop 8

With the political season coming to a climax, talks about Prop 8 have been ever increasing. Prop 8 is a Proposition in California that will make a Constitutional Amendment that defines marriage as between one man and one woman. Prop 8 comes as a response to several activist judges who allowed same sex marriage in California, despite an early proposition (Prop 22) that the people passed saying that marriage is defined between one man and one woman. Prop 8 is suppose to protect the sanctity of marriage.

We live in a society that believes that morality is relative. I personally, do not believe they are relative. I believe in an objective moral standard. I believe that objective moral standard is found in the character of God reflected in the laws and commandments he gives. The Bible is clear that the practice of homosexuality is a sin. I believe it is a sexual sin like every other sexual sin. It is as much a sin as looking a pornography and having premarital sex. My Biblical and moral convictions prevent me from supporting same sex marriage. It is on these same Biblical and moral grounds that I support Prop 8.

As well, there is a philosophical reason (critical reason) why I support prop 8. Throwing out my Biblical and moral convictions, lets look at this whole scenario. Some are arguing that people should be allowed to marry who ever they want as long as it does not hurt anyone.. Furthermore, they might argue that it is wrong for Moral Conservatives to impose their morality on others.. These arguments fail and are typical of the relativistic society we live in.. To say it is wrong for moral conservatives to impose their morality on others is a moral judgment that the person stating this is imposing on the moral conservatives. On this grounds alone, same sex marriage does not have a strong foothold because the sword cuts both ways.

Secondly, simply from a stand point of the the law I think Prop 8 should be upheld. Lets just say that if we don't use Biblical convictions to be the standard, what is our standard of right and wrong, strictly from a law point of view.. We live in a democracy and so it would be ultimately, the will of the people.. What is the will of the people on the issue of same sex marriage??? In 2000, Prop 22 was voted on and with 61% of the vote supporting the prop, it passed.. This proposition prevent the recognition of same-sex marriage in California but on May 15, 2008 4 Judges overturned that proposition, GOING AGAINST THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.. This is not how a democracy should be run.. Anybody whose ever stayed awake long enough in a US Government Class knows that these judges overstepped their boundaries.. The will of the people spoke and the will of the people must be upheld..

If I haven't made it clear.. I support prop 8, so anyone who wants to accuse me of being against prop 8 or saying that I am legitimizing a homosexual lifestyle, I am not. Along with supporting prop 8, I also hate prop 8.

II. Why I hate Prop 8

I am about to walk on some slippery grounds that might get me in trouble but I'm ok with that.. I hate prop 8.. I really do.. Why? I believe that it's bring out the worst in the church, namely hypocrisy.. Before I give my reasons let me drops some Bible bombs..

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.  “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
  “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.  “You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
  “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.  “Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.  - Matthew 23:23-27

“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye." - Luke 6:42

This is Jesus' description of hypocrisy.. My prayer is that His words would ring in our hearts as we approach this political season.

I hate Prop 8 because it is bringing the worst out of the church.. It is bringing hypocrisy out of many believers.. Prop 8 is the protection of the Sanctity of Marriage but the church that I love, has done more to rape the Sanctity of Marriage than I believe the homosexual agenda.. I use the word "rape" because I can not think of a word to describe the ravaging that "Christians" have done to the Sanctity of Marriage.

In America, half of all marriages end in divorce.. In the church a conservative estimate is that nearly one third of all marriages in the church end in divorce.. Sanctity of Marriage..

In the church... 50% of all Christian men and 20% of all Christian women are addicted to pornography... Sanctity of Marriage...

Premarital Sex among Christians is on the rise.... Sanctity of Marriage

Cohabitation among Christians are on the rise.... Sanctity of Marriage

The Sanctity of Marriage has been under attack long before the homosexual agenda came on board.. To simply demonize the homosexual community and the homosexual agenda and not to look in-house, is the a epitome of the definition of hypocrisy..

Prop 8 is bringing the worse out of the church.. The blood of guilt is as much in our hands as it is in the hands of those who advocate same-sex marriage.. To stand and at rally's and prayer meetings, and to repent for the sins of the homosexual community while not repenting of the sins of the church is to utter the prayers of the Pharisees:

  “The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, ‘God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.  ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ " - Luke 18:11-12

We have ALL sinned.. We Have ALL fallen short of the glory.. Read Romans 2:1.. We are all guilty..

To stand and say I am going to make a stand for righteousness while swimming in a pool of sin is hypocrisy.. To claim that we are going to stand up for the truth of the Word and yet treat the word of God with such neglect and abuse is hypocrisy..

I hate prop 8 because it is bringing out the worst in the church that I love..

III. What I believe the right response should be..

Repentance... Prayer meetings and rallies...  They all should be filled with the cries of repentance from the church.. How dare we stand and claim that we are the defenders of the sanctity of marriage when in fact we've done just as much to attack the sanctity of marriage?? How dare we demonize the homosexual community without seeing the real sinners that we are?? How dare we claim righteousness by our stance on prop 8 and not on faith??? How dare we claim to love the truth but bemoan sound exegesis..  It is not an us versus them.. It is an ALL OF US (Gay, straight, Christian, athiest.. etc) and HIM and we ALL stand guilty.. All followers of Christ, we must be in a place of repentance for allowing this battle over marriage to even come to this..

Grace... Believers should be praying for the grace to support this prop.. Our hypocrisy alone should disqualify us from making any judgments on this issue.. We need to repent and ask for God's graces to vote.. Pray that he would not hold our hypocrisy against our vote because ultimately we're voting against ourselves.. Condemning ourselves with this vote..

Vote... Support Prop 8 not based on YOUR moral worthiness but on His Moral Worthiness..

Humility... I don't even know what this is going to look like if prop 8 passes.. I do know that the church must take a posture of humility towards the homosexual community.. On one hand we must be obedient to the convictions that God placed in us and on the other hand we're just as guilty.. .We must walk in humility.. Everyone is talking about the ramifications if Prop 8 does not pass.. What about the ramifications if it does? The schism between the homosexual community and the church will be all the more wider.. We must walk in humility.

Pray... Prayer is not twisting God's arm.. Prayer is listening to his voice and aligning ourselves with His will.. Not just our will and his will but our attitudes and His attitude.. His love and our love.. His Wisdom and our Wisdom.. We must pray for His will to be done.

If prop 8 passes.. If there is not a sense of bittersweetness, we've missed it..

Lord, have mercy on us.
Hosanna. Lord save us.


You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.  Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.  So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?  Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? - Romans 2:1-4




 Posted 10/20/2008 3:13 PM - 178 Views - 22 eProps - 16 comments

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16 Comments

Visit TheBananaDestiny's Xanga Site!
Amen. This has been churning inside of mind ever since I've seen the many, many "Vote No on Prop. 8" signs all over campus. I agree with what you say...You just put it down in words better than I have.
Posted 10/20/2008 4:17 PM by TheBananaDestiny Xanga True Member - reply

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i agree. i should just print this out and pass it out. it would have saved many frustrating conversations. sometimes i cannot believe this is the same jonathan i knew in 8th grade.
Posted 10/20/2008 5:10 PM by stephkwan - reply

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Fantastic entry.  I appreciate that this is neither a conservative nor liberal perspective, but an honest and educated one.  I hate the fact that the church creates this huge propoganda around Proposition 8.  Why do they have to go to such lengths?  If the church is effectively doing its job, then they shouldn't have to worry about the way their members vote.  After our talk on Saturday, I think I decided not to vote against Prop 8... but I will neither vote to support it because I can't do so in good conscience.  You'll also be pleased to know that while I fully support Obama's views, I will not vote for him either.  I am also voting for a third-party candidate because I don't like the idea of being restricted to democrat or gop.  I think there are a lot of great third-party candidates America has missed out on simply because they weren't with a popular party. 

Posted 10/20/2008 5:11 PM by J0sephYu - reply

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@J0sephYu - 

"If the church is effectively doing its job, then they shouldn't have to worry about the way their members vote." - Great point.. I couldn't agree with you more on this point.. To me this is really sad. I enjoy our conversations. They help sharpen my thoughts.. Chuck Baldwin for President.. HAHAHA.

@stephkwan - 

"sometimes i cannot believe this is the same jonathan i knew in 8th grade." It's not that hard to believe.. Just don't read the content and look at the grammar.. Still the same 8th grader..

@TheBananaDestiny - 

Yeah I can't even imagine being up there during this time.. The political climate must be tense.. To be a Christian while all of this is going on must be hard.. Walk in grace my friend.. Be gracious to others.. but walk in the truth.. be missional.. take care!
Posted 10/20/2008 6:34 PM by Soisauce001 - reply

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Thanks Jonathan. I think this is what you were trying to say last night. I'm posting this on my blog!
Posted 10/20/2008 8:36 PM by FrankFusion - reply

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Great entry...it's so hard to find the right words when it comes to an issue like this, but you did it beautifully.
Posted 10/20/2008 9:00 PM by sprezzaturan Xanga True Member - reply

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@FrankFusion - 

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say but it took me awhile to process it.. That's why I wrote that vague entry about "us vs. them" and radical compassion.. This is also why I put up Romans 1:18-2:6.. The first part is the sins of the pagan.. The second part is for those who think they're free from judgment. Thanks for putting up with my frustrated words.

@sprezzaturan - 

Thank you! I haven't seen you around.. You sure you don't want to come out to Ontario and help me start a missional church? I'll let you paint for fun..
Posted 10/21/2008 12:19 AM by Soisauce001 - reply

Visit meesteryong's Xanga Site!
Excellent post, Jonathan.

By the way, where'd you get the stats for % of wo/men addicted to pornography. That seems alarmingly high.
Posted 10/21/2008 9:18 AM by meesteryong - reply

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@meesteryong - 

It's not academic work but I google-d it... http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Poll_Christians_addicted_to_pornography_0814.html
Posted 10/21/2008 9:31 AM by Soisauce001 - reply

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YEAH. I agree with your post and everyone elses comment to your post. At this point, people are acting as if the world will end depending on whether or not prop 8 passes. I know where I stand, and I know what the Bible teaches, but I think the church is handling this whole situation incorrectly. We're reacting, not responding. We're seeing this situation as if it's a fire to destroy, but we're not taking it as an opportunity to really show Jesus' love. "Lord, PLEASE save us from your followers." I think that's the only prayer we can pray. And that the non-Christian community would show grace to US, the Church. This whole "voting 'yes'" seems all too small in respects to what God is doing in the whole world. I think the reactions from the church is almost narrowing the larger act of Christ's finished work on the Cross. I don't think condemning and judging and pointing fingers and trying-to-get-people-on-our-side is the way Jesus would do it. We're so quick to react, so quick to make judgment of what's right and wrong (as if that's our job), so quick to "defend" our faith, that we forget, the truth will stand. It will always stand.
Posted 10/21/2008 5:45 PM by cabdriver - reply

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@cabdriver - 

We really can't fault others.. They're just defaulting to what they know.. I mean honestly, two years ago I'd be all over this issue like white on rice. I love your passion. I think all sides have used up our words and it's now time for radical compassion.. PS.. Benny told me a Tent City in Ontario.. It's a place where a lot of homeless people go.. Interested?
Posted 10/21/2008 6:57 PM by Soisauce001 - reply

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yeah! how does Tent City work?
Posted 10/21/2008 8:30 PM by cabdriver - reply

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@cabdriver - 

It's basically a plot of land.. with a bunch of tents. where the homeless live... How does it work? We make it work? =).. We have to figure something out!
Posted 10/21/2008 8:35 PM by Soisauce001 - reply

Visit jubilation_2's Xanga Site!
Well put..... Jonathan. :) *Yesterday I was responding to someone's Facebook note on this topic (prop 8), I definitely didn't do a good job on that @@ -Jane
Posted 10/22/2008 12:23 AM by jubilation_2 - reply

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@jubilation_2 - 

good to see you on xanga.. I enjoy our convo the other day. Keep updated with how things are going.
Posted 10/22/2008 12:50 AM by Soisauce001 - reply

Visit my_voice_heard's Xanga Site!

I really liked your blog. Prop 8 seems to be bringing out the worst in everybody. -_____-

Anyway, thanks for taking the words that I've been trying to get out and typing them.

Posted 11/6/2008 11:36 PM by my_voice_heard - reply


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